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Post by honeybees on Feb 6, 2018 1:12:30 GMT
I heard the part of the book that was left out of the first movies was only 20 pages long. So I guess he has to add a lot to it. It would b e hard to make a movie about only 20 pages of story. Yes - and not much happens between them beyond them longing for what might have been. Also, as far as Elio sees, Oliver is happy and devoted to his family. That doesn't mean he's not closeted or at the very least has cut off the part of himself that craves same sex affection. For people who are captivated with the love story, there's not much that would make a satisfying movie in the book. The book is heartbreaking in its portrayal of longing for what could have been. The book is open to interpretation - it doesn't give you any easy answers. You could see Oliver as gay (as I kind of do) and just someone who has accepted that erotic love is part of his past. You could see Oliver as bi and just longing for the love of his youth. You could see Elio in both those terms - but you probably shouldn't see them as the same person (unless you do).
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Post by bennyd on Feb 6, 2018 2:04:41 GMT
Okay, I rented God's Own Country tonight. Poor God's Own Country - any other year it would be the queer/gay film of the year. It's really good and similarly arty like CMBYN - long shots, naturalistic shots and sound, lots of nature. There they part. GOC is about inarticulate, working-class men in rough conditions and damn I had trouble understanding their accents. It's basically Brokeback Mountain, updated with more modern mores and made by a gay man for gay men. You can feel him not trying to appeal to straights. So, yes, it's got more explicit sex in it and full frontal and all that. The sexuality of the characters is never in question, even though it doesn't use words like gay or homosexual any more than CMBYN does. For me, CMBYN is a far richer film because it is based on a highly literary novel and it's got the insanely good performance by TC at its center. But it's not a "gay" film in the same way GOC is. I guess films have a Kinsey scale just like people CMBYN is probably a 6 while God's Own Country is a 10. Luca and Andre are using the male/male love story in CMBYN for symbolic purposes, with all sorts of androgyny and fluidity. In God's Own Country, it's a far more traditional love story, and masculinity is privileged visually a lot more. I mean, the guys in God's Own Country are butch farmhands that are gorgeous but not pretty in the way Oliver and Elio are. Oh, and as we continue our book/movie club - how about the fact that Oliver and Elio's names are practically anagrams for. Take away a V (Vimini) and an R - and Oliver becomes Elio. Just saying. It's a stretch, but we never do find out much in the book about Elio's future life and what we do find out is very similar to Oliver. I don't really think the theory holds, but I am sure Aciman toyed with the idea of Oliver and Elio being the same person who meet in a Joesph Conrad like time slip. Like The Secret Sharer. Anyway, I can see why some people looking for a more traditional story would prefer God's Own Country. I watched God’s Own Country this weekend and loved it. The two leads do an amazing job plus the writing and cinematography are very good. I also had trouble with the thick accents but fortunately a lot of the film doesn’t depend on dialogue, but in facial expressions - they’re so intense it’s palpable. The (frontal) nudity and sex scenes are not gratuitous, but very tastefully done - and important to the story. There’s no questioning the two leads sexuality (like in CMBYN) - what’s at stake is intimacy and Johnnny’s desire and fear of it. But, when Gheorghe does break through it’s such a beautiful scene with almost no dialogue. The actors who portray Johnny’s parents are very good too especially Ian Hart who plays the father (he was Quirinus Quirrell in the Harry Potter films). He has quite a resume. It’s interesting that Josh O’Connor (Johnny) is nominated along with Timothée for the Rising Star award at the Bafta’s - I wish the Oscar’s would add this category. He also won Best Actor at the British Independent Film Awards for the role. Also (sourcing Wikipedia) the film is loosely based on first time director Francis Lee’s own life and his decision to stay on his family’s farm or go to drama school. Anyways, I can see why this film made a lot of critics top films of the year lists. I can also see why some gay men (including some of my friends) prefer it over CMBYN. The ending makes the film a must see. Personally, I loved them both. They are just very different stories.
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Post by honeybees on Feb 6, 2018 2:21:22 GMT
Okay, I rented God's Own Country tonight. Poor God's Own Country - any other year it would be the queer/gay film of the year. It's really good and similarly arty like CMBYN - long shots, naturalistic shots and sound, lots of nature. There they part. GOC is about inarticulate, working-class men in rough conditions and damn I had trouble understanding their accents. It's basically Brokeback Mountain, updated with more modern mores and made by a gay man for gay men. You can feel him not trying to appeal to straights. So, yes, it's got more explicit sex in it and full frontal and all that. The sexuality of the characters is never in question, even though it doesn't use words like gay or homosexual any more than CMBYN does. For me, CMBYN is a far richer film because it is based on a highly literary novel and it's got the insanely good performance by TC at its center. But it's not a "gay" film in the same way GOC is. I guess films have a Kinsey scale just like people CMBYN is probably a 6 while God's Own Country is a 10. Luca and Andre are using the male/male love story in CMBYN for symbolic purposes, with all sorts of androgyny and fluidity. In God's Own Country, it's a far more traditional love story, and masculinity is privileged visually a lot more. I mean, the guys in God's Own Country are butch farmhands that are gorgeous but not pretty in the way Oliver and Elio are. Oh, and as we continue our book/movie club - how about the fact that Oliver and Elio's names are practically anagrams for. Take away a V (Vimini) and an R - and Oliver becomes Elio. Just saying. It's a stretch, but we never do find out much in the book about Elio's future life and what we do find out is very similar to Oliver. I don't really think the theory holds, but I am sure Aciman toyed with the idea of Oliver and Elio being the same person who meet in a Joesph Conrad like time slip. Like The Secret Sharer. Anyway, I can see why some people looking for a more traditional story would prefer God's Own Country. I watched God’s Own Country this weekend and loved it. The two leads do an amazing job plus the writing and cinematography are very good. I also had trouble with the thick accents but fortunately a lot of the film doesn’t depend on dialogue, but in facial expressions - they’re so intense it’s palpable. The (frontal) nudity and sex scenes are not gratuitous, but very tastefully done - and important to the story. There’s no questioning the two leads sexuality (like in CMBYN) - what’s at stake is intimacy and Johnnny’s desire and fear of it. But, when Gheorghe does break through it’s such a beautiful scene with almost no dialogue. The actors who portray Johnny’s parents are very good too especially Ian Hart who plays the father (he was Quirinus Quirrell in the Harry Potter films). He has quite a resume. It’s interesting that Josh O’Connor (Johnny) is nominated along with Timothée for the Rising Star award at the Bafta’s - I wish the Oscar’s would add this category. He also won Best Actor at the British Independent Film Awards for the role. Also (sourcing Wikipedia) the film is loosely based on first time director Francis Lee’s own life and his decision to stay on his family’s farm or go to drama school. Anyways, I can see why this film made a lot of critics top films of the year lists. I can also see why some gay men (including some of my friends) prefer it over CMBYN. The ending makes the film a must see. Personally, I loved them both. They are just very different stories. And the fact that they are different stories is just fine! There's room for so many stories that haven't been told. My friend and I were talking about how if this is the golden age of Queer cinema, then Steven Spielberg's Lincoln belongs in the conversation since both Tony Kushner (the screenwriter) and Spielberg have said the that film portrays Lincoln as bisexual, so much as you can apply pre-modern labels to his sexuality. I believe that Lincoln was in love with Joshua Speed, so even though that portion of Lincoln's biography is not it the film, I'm glad Kushner addressed the issue of his sexuality. CMBYN is probably the film that will appeal to a broader (at least American) audience, but God's Own Country has an important story to tell. I can't speak for gay men, but I do think it's message about intimacy probably resonates a lot with men who have access to sex but not affection and love. Sexuality is such an important - and rich - topic that it's very easy to see how so many good films are being made now that the doors are open for them to do so. No one film should bear the burden of telling everyone's story either.
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Post by bennyd on Feb 6, 2018 3:54:40 GMT
I agree HB, CMBYN is a richer and more complex film and Timothee’s performance is simply stunning. Also worth noting, he is not only nominated for the Rising Star at the Bafta’s - he’s nominated for Best Actor. There are a lot more gay stories to tell. I am looking forward to Greg Berlanti’s gay teen comedy Love Simon as well as Garrard Conley’s memoir Boy Erased. I just started reading the book. One of the reasons I love Netflix is the availability of all the gay films (American and foreign) to stream. Season three of EastSiders is now available to stream, btw. It’s amazing how many very well done (and some not so well done) films there are to watch. Getting back to why some gay men may prefer God’s Own Country to CMBYN - is that we’re yearning for happy endings. We’ve have had to endure way too many not so happy endings or even tragic endings. In some ways I think marriage equality has changed the mindset of young gay men and lesbians to believe in the “happily ever after” cliche.
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Post by honeybees on Feb 6, 2018 12:38:23 GMT
I agree HB, CMBYN is a richer and more complex film and Timothee’s performance is simply stunning. Also worth noting, he is not only nominated for the Rising Star at the Bafta’s - he’s nominated for Best Actor. There are a lot more gay stories to tell. I am looking forward to Greg Berlanti’s gay teen comedy Love Simon as well as Garrard Conley’s memoir Boy Erased. I just started reading the book. One of the reasons I love Netflix is the availability of all the gay films (American and foreign) to stream. Season three of EastSiders is now available to stream, btw. It’s amazing how many very well done (and some not so well done) films there are to watch. Getting back to why some gay men may prefer God’s Own Country to CMBYN - is that we’re yearning for happy endings. We’ve have had to endure way too many not so happy endings or even tragic endings. In some ways I think marriage equality has changed the mindset of young gay men and lesbians to believe in the “happily ever after” cliche.If I've only seen the film CMBYN once, but I think there's a kind of happy ending - albeit an unusual one - in that in that last shot, Elio seems to be taking his dad's advice and accepting that this love affair will always exist as something beautiful in his memory, despite the pain. I think the book is both interesting and problematic in that it seems to be arguing that some passions should not be "ruined" by domesticating them. That's something the ancient Greeks certainly thought about m/m relationships. Better just let the fire burn in your memory. It's a kind of "We'll Always Have Paris" theme. After all, many of the greatest straight romances don't have traditional happy endings - Titanic, Casablanca, Gone with the Wind. If there's a flaw in the book (besides the fact that some of it is incomprehensible) - it's that future Elio has not taken his father's advice and spends twenty years longing for Oliver instead of just accepting the beauty of what it was. Oliver, on the other hand, seems to have accepted his choices. This is why God's Own Country strikes me as a more traditional story, with its happy ending. Given the long history of punishing the gays narratives, happy endings still feel fresh and unusual.
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Post by bennyd on Feb 15, 2018 3:35:31 GMT
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Post by honeybees on Feb 16, 2018 13:35:22 GMT
I'm very happy for him! I do hope he stays grounded though. He seems like a nice kid.
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Post by bennyd on Feb 17, 2018 4:19:56 GMT
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Post by bennyd on Feb 17, 2018 4:20:56 GMT
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Post by bennyd on Feb 20, 2018 17:47:49 GMT
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Post by bennyd on Feb 22, 2018 4:17:58 GMT
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Post by bennyd on Feb 26, 2018 3:03:25 GMT
Here is a video of Garrard Conley author of Boy Erased discussing the book at a book fair. I just started reading it.
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Post by bennyd on Mar 29, 2018 12:16:36 GMT
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Post by honeybees on Mar 29, 2018 12:49:34 GMT
I think he needs to be quiet. He's coming off as a creepy old perv who wanted to see Chalamet's dick and didn't get his way. Back in the 80s, explicit sex scenes were revolutionary and they did make a statement but now whether it's HBO or Indie films there's plenty of explicit sex and full frontal - gay and straight available. Not to mention porn, which is readily available to everyone. Most sex scenes in movies are about titillating the audience not about what the characters are feeling. The peach scene in CMBYN was very erotic because it was shot and acted in a way to privilege what Elio was feeling both physically and emotionally and not inviting the audience to get turned on. Yet at the same time, a whole bunch of adults acted like they were in middle school because of the peach All that said, I did think it was a cop-out that Luca panned away during the sex. I think there was a way to do it without doing that. The thing is, in the book, they are under the covers and in the dark, and that's key because what they are doing is furtive and secret. It's all about the physical sensations and the emotions. If Ivory had gotten his way, he would have had to change a fundamental element of what makes the scene so hot in the book and I totally get why Luca refused to change the book on that point. Think about it. If this were a 90-something straight screenwriter who kept obsessing about not getting to see a 19-year-old girl be fully nude, how would it play? Chalamet gave a beautiful and open performance and maybe if an old perv had been creeping around saying "show me your dick" - it wouldn't have been possible. I wouldn't mind if Ivory had lamented the lack of nudity once. It's just that I know that young people do not need explicit sex in movies. I've talked to my students about it - they have porn on their phones, sometimes starring themselves. With a narrative movie, they want story and subtly. They don't mind explicit sex but they often times find it unnecessary and they never find it shocking. Also, I fully support actors who are comfortable performing nude, male or female. However, I also support actors who are not comfortable for any reason being able to say no, as it is their business. If Luca was cool with working within the actors' comfort zones, that's to be applauded not scorned. Hammer said he wasn't comfortable because he didn't want his daughter to be teased about it when she was in school, which is fair. It may be an American thing, but it is a thing and Ivory's lack of caring or concern for the actors feels like an artifact of a much uglier time when powerful men could get their way and be praised for it.
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Post by bennyd on Mar 30, 2018 1:35:30 GMT
There were plenty of shots of Timothee's butt - Armie not so much. The pan away scene bothered me because it wasn't in the dark - it felt deliberate and shameful. The sex scene between Elio and the girl was much more graphic. The biggest beef I had was the director's decision not to let Oliver eat the peach. It was the ultimate metaphor for their relationship. If it made someone who was seeing the film feel squeamish then they shouldn't been there in the first place. I agree Ivory needs to let the nudity issue go and yes I respect an actor's right not to do nudity - but he is pointing out the double standard that exists in Hollywood, plus I think he likes taking digs at how repressed he thinks Americans are on sex and nudity in general. Also want to point out that studies have proven the states with the most porn consumers are red states which just happen to be more religious.
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