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Post by christening on May 24, 2015 17:44:58 GMT
Sorry that my views are too radical. Did I miss a post? Nah, its ok.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 18:13:11 GMT
This is when everything went to hell in a handbasket. The beginning of WilSon unraveling and Will becoming out of control.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 18:16:25 GMT
Well CM, never knew he was going to be fired. He thought he will be fin his contract, these two cant be the same. I wasn't trying to imply their circumstances were the same. My point was both actors didn't renew contracts but in the meantime stuck with meaningless interaction. Adding, FS was going through a lot around this time this was being filmed and being away from his fiancé and the pending sentencing couldn't have being easy for him was where I was going with that. Sorry I wasn't clear. As for CM I thought at the end he was totally removed(like I see with FS with these scenes with GW & CS) from what was going on and IMO it showed on screen with his inappropriate giggling just was annoying. I wasn't talking about him being let go. My focus was about the performances btw the two actors and how similar IMO they are. Totally agree with tr123. I wrote about this as well how FS probably felt (IMO not that he thought this) robbed from his story bc the drama is coming from Will and Paul's characters and sonny is stuck in the middle. I guess I miss the old Wilson, their flaws and all !!!!
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 20:28:15 GMT
Sorry that my views are too radical. I can completely relate to your thoughts about the situation as I have felt those same things. My feelings about Sonny waver though. Sometimes I feel I understand him but many more times I'm just so frustrated that he gets to appear a victim to Will's antics rather than be responsible for any issues they have. I feel like he feared Will becoming independent and expected complete honesty from him without feeling obliged to be always honest himself. Also he defends Will at times but not fast enough nor harshly enough for me. But I do think he is in a painful tailspin right now. I don't think he loves Paul anymore.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 21:42:28 GMT
You know, I was so anti-Sonny for a while that I missed his point of view. I think sometimes I am so focused on Will’s point of view that I miss Sonny’s suffering. In a way I have this knee-jerk reflex to defend Will because everyone attacks him. But rewatching the “Sami goes to Hollywood” scenes made ma reevaluate some of my assumptions. I think I didn’t watch the show that closely at that time because I hated Will’s actions towards his mother and the whole Sami revenge & Abigail is the victim debacle. But on second watch I’ve noticed how dismissive Will was of Sonny’s feelings. He said so many insensitive and dismissive things and it didn’t help that Will didn’t have someone to talk to. It sounded like Sonny was an after thought to him. It was also shown Sonny struggling to say something but going along with Will’s wishes. He understood that Will had to be there for his mom but at the same time he was feeling neglected. And after Will came back from LA, he was engulfed into the whole Paul Narita interview thing & Sonny was busy with dealing with the failure of his second club. I think the show set up very well WilSon’s growing distance but they prolonged the aftermath of Will’s ONS. They should’ve shown more Will and Sonny working to find their way to each other. Instead, we’re stuck with Paul and Sonny’s repetitive conversation & Will doing stupid things. It would’ve helped if we saw them bonding again but Sonny fighting that because he was still hurt. It would’ve also helped if we saw Will or Sonny talking to Abby or any of their friends about their feelings, but instead they isolated the guys and kept them apart from their support system.
In regards to Freddie, I always hate speculating about actors, their likes and dislikes because I don’t know them. But actors usually try to sell the storyline even when they hate it because ultimately they want their fans to watch and they don’t want to offend the writers and TPTB so they keep their mouth shut if they hate an element of the storyline. If I were Freddie, I would hate if my character was depicted as someone who was wishy washy and passive aggressive. I would’ve liked him to be decisive and in command. Even the club running, Sonny is made like he’s a barista instead of an equal owner of the club.
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Post by Will68 on May 24, 2015 22:05:56 GMT
You know, I was so anti-Sonny for a while that I missed his point of view. I think sometimes I am so focused on Will’s point of view that I miss Sonny’s suffering. In a way I have this knee-jerk reflex to defend Will because everyone attacks him. But rewatching the “Sami goes to Hollywood” scenes made ma reevaluate some of my assumptions. I think I didn’t watch the show that closely at that time because I hated Will’s actions towards his mother and the whole Sami revenge & Abigail is the victim debacle. But on second watch I’ve noticed how dismissive Will was of Sonny’s feelings. He said so many insensitive and dismissive things and it didn’t help that Will didn’t have someone to talk to. It sounded like Sonny was an after thought to him. It was also shown Sonny struggling to say something but going along with Will’s wishes. He understood that Will had to be there for his mom but at the same time he was feeling neglected. And after Will came back from LA, he was engulfed into the whole Paul Narita interview thing & Sonny was busy with dealing with the failure of his second club. I think the show set up very well WilSon’s growing distance but they prolonged the aftermath of Will’s ONS. They should’ve shown more Will and Sonny working to find their way to each other. Instead, we’re stuck with Paul and Sonny’s repetitive conversation & Will doing stupid things. It would’ve helped if we saw them bonding again but Sonny fighting that because he was still hurt. It would’ve also helped if we saw Will or Sonny talking to Abby or any of their friends about their feelings, but instead they isolated the guys and kept them apart from their support system. In regards to Freddie, I always hate speculating about actors, their likes and dislikes because I don’t know them. But actors usually try to sell the storyline even when they hate it because ultimately they want their fans to watch and they don’t want to offend the writers and TPTB so they keep their mouth shut if they hate an element of the storyline. If I were Freddie, I would hate if my character was depicted as someone who was wishy washy and passive aggressive. I would’ve liked him to be decisive and in command. Even the club running, Sonny is made like he’s a barista instead of an equal owner of the club. I agree that they wrote Will as a total ass right before he left for Hollywood and while he was there. But part of Will's behavior was because he didn't feel Sonny supported or respected him.
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 22:16:30 GMT
You know, I was so anti-Sonny for a while that I missed his point of view. I think sometimes I am so focused on Will’s point of view that I miss Sonny’s suffering. In a way I have this knee-jerk reflex to defend Will because everyone attacks him. But rewatching the “Sami goes to Hollywood” scenes made ma reevaluate some of my assumptions. I think I didn’t watch the show that closely at that time because I hated Will’s actions towards his mother and the whole Sami revenge & Abigail is the victim debacle. But on second watch I’ve noticed how dismissive Will was of Sonny’s feelings. He said so many insensitive and dismissive things and it didn’t help that Will didn’t have someone to talk to. It sounded like Sonny was an after thought to him. It was also shown Sonny struggling to say something but going along with Will’s wishes. He understood that Will had to be there for his mom but at the same time he was feeling neglected. And after Will came back from LA, he was engulfed into the whole Paul Narita interview thing & Sonny was busy with dealing with the failure of his second club. I think the show set up very well WilSon’s growing distance but they prolonged the aftermath of Will’s ONS. They should’ve shown more Will and Sonny working to find their way to each other. Instead, we’re stuck with Paul and Sonny’s repetitive conversation & Will doing stupid things. It would’ve helped if we saw them bonding again but Sonny fighting that because he was still hurt. It would’ve also helped if we saw Will or Sonny talking to Abby or any of their friends about their feelings, but instead they isolated the guys and kept them apart from their support system. In regards to Freddie, I always hate speculating about actors, their likes and dislikes because I don’t know them. But actors usually try to sell the storyline even when they hate it because ultimately they want their fans to watch and they don’t want to offend the writers and TPTB so they keep their mouth shut if they hate an element of the storyline. If I were Freddie, I would hate if my character was depicted as someone who was wishy washy and passive aggressive. I would’ve liked him to be decisive and in command. Even the club running, Sonny is made like he’s a barista instead of an equal owner of the club. I agree that they wrote Will as a total ass right before he left for Hollywood and while he was there. But part of Will's behavior was because he didn't feel Sonny supported or respected him. Kaha, I feel the same way you do mostly. Rewatching has given more perspectives. WilSon68, I also agree. I think one reason I was not so upset about Will's dismissive behavior was because it seemed to me Sonny was always criticizing Will's articles and topics. Even when Chad himself wanted that article written, Sonny put Will down for doing it. It was like as soon as Will started publishing Sonny only wanted articles that would not stir any thing up. I understood why Will did not discuss is failures in La. I think he felt judged. Sonnyalso made comments about paying the bills so it seemed unfair to me. And Sonny could have gone with Will. But I can now stop and see Sonny's fears probably of losing Will to his career. He doesn't even realize it maybe.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 22:19:44 GMT
You know, I was so anti-Sonny for a while that I missed his point of view. I think sometimes I am so focused on Will’s point of view that I miss Sonny’s suffering. In a way I have this knee-jerk reflex to defend Will because everyone attacks him. But rewatching the “Sami goes to Hollywood” scenes made ma reevaluate some of my assumptions. I think I didn’t watch the show that closely at that time because I hated Will’s actions towards his mother and the whole Sami revenge & Abigail is the victim debacle. But on second watch I’ve noticed how dismissive Will was of Sonny’s feelings. He said so many insensitive and dismissive things and it didn’t help that Will didn’t have someone to talk to. It sounded like Sonny was an after thought to him. It was also shown Sonny struggling to say something but going along with Will’s wishes. He understood that Will had to be there for his mom but at the same time he was feeling neglected. And after Will came back from LA, he was engulfed into the whole Paul Narita interview thing & Sonny was busy with dealing with the failure of his second club. I think the show set up very well WilSon’s growing distance but they prolonged the aftermath of Will’s ONS. They should’ve shown more Will and Sonny working to find their way to each other. Instead, we’re stuck with Paul and Sonny’s repetitive conversation & Will doing stupid things. It would’ve helped if we saw them bonding again but Sonny fighting that because he was still hurt. It would’ve also helped if we saw Will or Sonny talking to Abby or any of their friends about their feelings, but instead they isolated the guys and kept them apart from their support system. In regards to Freddie, I always hate speculating about actors, their likes and dislikes because I don’t know them. But actors usually try to sell the storyline even when they hate it because ultimately they want their fans to watch and they don’t want to offend the writers and TPTB so they keep their mouth shut if they hate an element of the storyline. If I were Freddie, I would hate if my character was depicted as someone who was wishy washy and passive aggressive. I would’ve liked him to be decisive and in command. Even the club running, Sonny is made like he’s a barista instead of an equal owner of the club. Kaha, your insight has eloquently summed the void to this storyline, totally agree. Adding: All three men standing alone are very sympathic individuals. But It has become toxic when the writers insist on making each individual victims at the time they shouldn't be and the viewer becomes the harsh critic which in the beginning was warranted but lately it has become the viewer the butt (no punt intended) of the joke. It has dragged on and loyal fans should still be expected to be satisfied or loyal with the outcome. The danger in that assumption, me as an example, is why bother sticking around for the ending bc none of the characters remain sympathic anymore. The only person you want to really continue to see is ARI. She is golden to watch and it is her who is the injured party (victim) bc the grown ups are acting like her in the way she plays with her toys:tossing them about and tucking them under her arm and wearing the expression: I really don't care... I am use to every person on the planet in Salem hovering around me, so, what's one more."
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 22:20:55 GMT
You know, I was so anti-Sonny for a while that I missed his point of view. I think sometimes I am so focused on Will’s point of view that I miss Sonny’s suffering. In a way I have this knee-jerk reflex to defend Will because everyone attacks him. But rewatching the “Sami goes to Hollywood” scenes made ma reevaluate some of my assumptions. I think I didn’t watch the show that closely at that time because I hated Will’s actions towards his mother and the whole Sami revenge & Abigail is the victim debacle. But on second watch I’ve noticed how dismissive Will was of Sonny’s feelings. He said so many insensitive and dismissive things and it didn’t help that Will didn’t have someone to talk to. It sounded like Sonny was an after thought to him. It was also shown Sonny struggling to say something but going along with Will’s wishes. He understood that Will had to be there for his mom but at the same time he was feeling neglected. And after Will came back from LA, he was engulfed into the whole Paul Narita interview thing & Sonny was busy with dealing with the failure of his second club. I think the show set up very well WilSon’s growing distance but they prolonged the aftermath of Will’s ONS. They should’ve shown more Will and Sonny working to find their way to each other. Instead, we’re stuck with Paul and Sonny’s repetitive conversation & Will doing stupid things. It would’ve helped if we saw them bonding again but Sonny fighting that because he was still hurt. It would’ve also helped if we saw Will or Sonny talking to Abby or any of their friends about their feelings, but instead they isolated the guys and kept them apart from their support system. In regards to Freddie, I always hate speculating about actors, their likes and dislikes because I don’t know them. But actors usually try to sell the storyline even when they hate it because ultimately they want their fans to watch and they don’t want to offend the writers and TPTB so they keep their mouth shut if they hate an element of the storyline. If I were Freddie, I would hate if my character was depicted as someone who was wishy washy and passive aggressive. I would’ve liked him to be decisive and in command. Even the club running, Sonny is made like he’s a barista instead of an equal owner of the club. I agree that they wrote Will as a total ass right before he left for Hollywood and while he was there. But part of Will's behavior was because he didn't feel Sonny supported or respected him. I think another part was the pressure of trying to support his mom and his siblings. Sonny told him that he can lean on him but Will went alone. I think part of it is that he was feeling judged by Sonny. But I think Sonny was feeling abandoned.
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Post by Will68 on May 24, 2015 22:39:07 GMT
I agree that they wrote Will as a total ass right before he left for Hollywood and while he was there. But part of Will's behavior was because he didn't feel Sonny supported or respected him. I think another part was the pressure of trying to support his mom and his siblings. Sonny told him that he can lean on him but Will went alone. I think part of it is that he was feeling judged by Sonny. But I think Sonny was feeling abandoned. And both were feeling the way they did because they never communicate their feeling well to each other. One of my favorite scenes was when Will and Sonny got back together, after the Gabby baby daddy reveal, and Will wouldn't make love with Sonny until they talked about all their problems. They sat in the floor in Will's Dorm and talked about everything. As usually we didn't hear most of it but they talked. As happy as I was when Will and Sonny made love this past week, again offscreen, it really didn't solve any of their problems.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2015 22:47:30 GMT
Because the love making was coerced with deceit and Will had never used deceit to get Sonny to make love. And of course entered Paul once more telling Sonny how much he loves him and bull-horning Will's character which in all honesty has being this way all along but is used against him bc he does the so-called questionable things that Sonny is written to be his Judge and jury without his behavior with Paul ever called into question.
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Post by Will68 on May 24, 2015 23:03:23 GMT
Because the love making was coerced with deceit and Will had never used deceit to get Sonny to make love. And of course entered Paul once more telling Sonny how much he loves him and bull-horning Will's character which in all honesty has being this way all along but is used against him bc he does the so-called questionable things that Sonny is written to be his Judge and jury without his behavior with Paul ever called into question. Will wasn't honest about what happened with Paul but he was honest about how he felt about Sonny.
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 23:07:37 GMT
Because the love making was coerced with deceit and Will had never used deceit to get Sonny to make love. And of course entered Paul once more telling Sonny how much he loves him and bull-horning Will's character which in all honesty has being this way all along but is used against him bc he does the so-called questionable things that Sonny is written to be his Judge and jury without his behavior with Paul ever called into question. I actually think Paul is really angry because Will is rejecting him and trying to get him out of town and out of their lives. I'm thinking Paul has twisted and confused his feelings. Of course it would be insane for anyone to not want their husbands ex-lover (proposed to even) who is actively pursuing their husband Gone and even Paul should know this. But I think Paul is projecting his feelings how he thinks they make sense. I originally was so angry and discusted with Paul in the last episode. But once again he was so emotional and heated with Will and as soon as Will arrived his focus and eyes were on him. Not Sonny. And he told Will I'm doing this because of YOU and described the Jarlena senario as pertaining to them. Will pointed out that it was different because while Marlena actually loved John he said "but Sonny loves me!" So he made it clear it was not the same situation. Then instead of Paul saying that Sonny might love HIM too and pointing out secret meetings or eye contact or anything, instead of addressing Sonny as Marlena and he as John he said asked then why did YOU cheat with me? How does that answer the question of Sonnys love for Paul? It's as if he is NOW saying Will is Marlena. Maybe This is Paul spinning out of control too. He thinks it's because he wants Sonny. I think it's because he can't stand that Will doesn't want him around and he wants to hurt Will. He feels hurt by Will. I also think Sonny is finally a little suspicious of the possibility that Will is too focused on Paul for the wrong reason. Inthinknthats why he walked away from them after all.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 23:11:23 GMT
Because the love making was coerced with deceit and Will had never used deceit to get Sonny to make love. And of course entered Paul once more telling Sonny how much he loves him and bull-horning Will's character which in all honesty has being this way all along but is used against him bc he does the so-called questionable things that Sonny is written to be his Judge and jury without his behavior with Paul ever called into question. Will wasn't honest about what happened with Paul but he was honest about how he felt about Sonny. I agree. I don't think the love making was coerced. I think it was an honest moment and I absolutely believe that Will and Sonny would've connected if they had the same conversation without the whole Paul stuff. If Will came back and they had an honest conversation, things would've progressed the same way. We saw Sonny thawing. They obviously talk since Sonny knew about Will's interview with Clyde and that picture on Will's phone indicates that Sonny sent it to him. They were also talking on the phone and exchanged I love yous. If anything, I think the incident with Paul was a step backward for them.
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Post by Will68 on May 24, 2015 23:14:19 GMT
Because the love making was coerced with deceit and Will had never used deceit to get Sonny to make love. And of course entered Paul once more telling Sonny how much he loves him and bull-horning Will's character which in all honesty has being this way all along but is used against him bc he does the so-called questionable things that Sonny is written to be his Judge and jury without his behavior with Paul ever called into question. I actually think Paul is really angry because Will is rejecting him and trying to get him out of town and out of their lives. InthinknPaul has twisted and confused his feelings. Of course it would be insane for anyone to not want their husbands ex-lover (proposed to even) who is actively pursuing their husband Gone and even Paul should no this. But I think Paul is projecting his feelings how he thinks they make sense. I originally was so angry and discussed with Paul in the last episode. But once again he was so emotional and heated with Will and as soon as Will arrived his focus and eyes were in him. Not Sonny. And he told Will I'm doing this because of YOU and described the Jarlena senario as pertaining to them. Will pointed out that it was different because while Marlena lAxtually loved John he said "but Sonny loves me!" So he mad it clear it was not the same situation. Then instead of Paul saying that Sonny might love HIM too and pointing out secret meetings or eye contact or anything, instead of addressing Sonny as Marlena and he as John he said asked then why did YOU cheat with me? How does that answer the question of Sonnys love for Paul? This is Paul spinning out of control too. He thinks it's because he wants Sonny. I think it's because he can't stand that Will doesn't want him around and he wants to hurt Will. He feels hurt by Will. I also think Sonny is finally a little suspicious of the possibility that Will is too focused on Paul for the wrong reason. Inthinknthats why he walked away from them after all. I also find it odd that Sonny doesn't have a problem with Will being alone with Paul. Will freaks every time he sees Paul around Sonny because he's Sonny's former love but Sonny seems to care less if Will is around the man that he cheated with. It's almost like Sonny is thinking he knows nothing will ever happen between Will and Paul again because they are both in love with him.
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