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Post by sunnyways on May 24, 2015 3:17:44 GMT
Hello members.
I am creating a new thread for our coffee house so that we can a continuing discussion of days. At the end of the week, I usually archive the week's episodes and we begin again, but sometimes, I'm not ready to give up talking about a certain episode, plot or character. There are also times that I will have a random thought about an episode, a character, an actor on the show or even the behind the scenes people. More than once I've said to myself, where do I put my [random] thought. Sometimes there is just no place for it so I don't say anything and let it go. Well, with this thread, you can put your thoughts about the show that don't really belong anywhere else here. I also think we need a place where we can keep up general discussion at the end of the week, and if we sprinkled with some personal speculation (non spoiler based) that would be great!
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Post by honeybees on May 24, 2015 3:24:12 GMT
Okay, I just posted something in the Q&A thread that warrants discussion. There is so much focus on Will's dumb actions, let's talk about Paul and the fact he's clearly a crappy poker player.
I said this:
"On the other hand, Paul showed all his cards to Will on Friday. He arrogantly assumes that he and Sonny are Jarlena, told Will that he told Sonny everything but the blackmail of Tori and then declared he was not going to stop chasing Sonny. That was all pretty dumb on Paul's part. But I totally agree with you that I want Will to regain his brain and use it. I don' want him being the new Nicole - destroying himself with lies when it's not necessary."
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 3:33:44 GMT
Paul is not a crappy poker player; he knows he's dealing with Will who cast himself in the role of the interloper. Will gave Paul all his power. He created his persona in his writing and made him very sympathetic and heroic. And then he forgot all about his and Sonny's love and focused all of his attention of making it seem as though Paul was the love of Sonny's life. He never thought that Paul was exaggerating or overstating his love story with Paul; instead he bought everything hook, line, and sinker. And then he tells everyone who would listen that Paul is a catch and he’s nothing. Why should Paul pretend otherwise when Will is pent in sabotaging his life while building up Paul.
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Post by honeybees on May 24, 2015 3:38:43 GMT
Paul is not a crappy poker player; he knows he's dealing with Will who cast himself in the role of the interloper. Will gave Paul all his power. He created his persona in his writing and made him very sympathetic and heroic. And then he forgot all about his and Sonny's love and focused all of his attention of making it seem as though Paul was the love of Sonny's life. He never thought that Paul was exaggerating or overstating his love story with Paul; instead he bought everything hook, line, and sinker. And then he tells everyone who would listen that Paul is a catch and he’s nothing. Why should Paul pretend otherwise when Will is pent in sabotaging his life while building up Paul. Hubris. Paul believes everything Will has been saying, to the point he dismisses Sonny's feelings as much as Will has.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 3:43:22 GMT
Paul is not a crappy poker player; he knows he's dealing with Will who cast himself in the role of the interloper. Will gave Paul all his power. He created his persona in his writing and made him very sympathetic and heroic. And then he forgot all about his and Sonny's love and focused all of his attention of making it seem as though Paul was the love of Sonny's life. He never thought that Paul was exaggerating or overstating his love story with Paul; instead he bought everything hook, line, and sinker. And then he tells everyone who would listen that Paul is a catch and he’s nothing. Why should Paul pretend otherwise when Will is pent in sabotaging his life while building up Paul. Hubris. Paul believes everything Will has been saying, to the point he dismisses Sonny's feelings as much as Will has. I know, but I really want Will to focus on what Sonny is feeling and how he made him feel unwanted. He left to pursue his dream and Sonny felt rejected and when he came back he cheated on him. Will needs to focus on that and forget about Paul. And I really wish Will was like Sami. I still can't recover from how pathetic he sounded yesterday. Will, you're better than this.
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Post by honeybees on May 24, 2015 4:13:05 GMT
Hubris. Paul believes everything Will has been saying, to the point he dismisses Sonny's feelings as much as Will has. I know, but I really want Will to focus on what Sonny is feeling and how he made him feel unwanted. He left to pursue his dream and Sonny felt rejected and when he came back he cheated on him. Will needs to focus on that and forget about Paul. And I really wish Will was like Sami. I still can't recover from how pathetic he sounded yesterday. Will, you're better than this. I know what you are saying, and if history is a judge, Will is going to go all Nicole and destroy himself. These writers only have a couple of trick and lying over and over again when it's stupid to lie is one of their tricks. JJ, Eve, Nicole, Will, Theresa.... But I don't think Paul has all the cards. I think he thinks he does.
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Post by sunnyways on May 24, 2015 5:12:43 GMT
Honeybees: I like your analogy of Will -> Nicole. I've never really seen Nicole that way...interesting.
And I agree with Both you and Kaha on this matter, you both make some really interesting points.
I think Will who does show confidence in other parts of his life, seems to loose himself when Paul is around. I think Will thinks that Paul is better than him...And Paul a professional ball player is an expert at reading signals. I think he knows when it comes to Will he has the upper hand in all things except when it comes to him and Sonny. One thing I find interesting in the Horita dynamic is that in a way, Paul does hold all the cards when it comes to Will. I was just rewatching the scenes where Will and Paul are together in the hotel and Paul calls Will out on his attraction to him (Paul.) Paul came on to Will again, knowing full well that Will was still attracted to him and then was pissed when the actual act was cut well short of the happy ending. Paul called Will out again on his attraction after Sonny was in the hospital just before Adrienne busted in on them. So now, and this could just be me fanwanking way too hard, but along with blackmailing Will with 'you blackmailed my mother and I'll tell Sonny if you....' or he could also add in 'you wanted me on more than one occasion, I could tell just by the way you were looking at me and the way we kissed' excuse. Will did admit to Sonny that he had wanted to have sex with Paul, and that he hadn't whored himself for the story. If Sonny knew that WiPau almost had sex three times I think Sonny would loose his shit.
Paul could hold something like that over Will's head, but I don't he will. Because it's like Honeybees said, Paul does believe Will and I think beneath all the animosity, Paul though loving Sonny completely, has a small part inside of him where he holds onto the connection they (Hoirta) once had. He came out to Will, Will was with him when he came out to his family....Paul told Will he thought he'd met somebody but they were "taken too", Paul was talking about Will. I think Paul is seeking connections right now, especially since he lost so much when he played ball. It makes sense to me, that he's want to connect with Will on some level simply because of Will's connection to John. I think Paul thinks that Pill could be friends if it wasn't for that pesky I love your husband too problem. I want Will to have a card or two up his sleeve, considering that he does now know exactly what Paul is all about even if Sonny is clueless.
I really hope that in the end Will isn't completely destroyed by the writing that he somehow, regains his brain and is freed from his current state of self doubt and insecurity.
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Post by Will68 on May 24, 2015 12:18:10 GMT
Could Will's concern about Sonny and Paul be that Will is thinking that he couldn't resist Paul so how can Sonny?
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 12:31:54 GMT
Honeybees: I like your analogy of Will -> Nicole. I've never really seen Nicole that way...interesting.
And I agree with Both you and Kaha on this matter, you both make some really interesting points.
I think Will who does show confidence in other parts of his life, seems to loose himself when Paul is around. I think Will thinks that Paul is better than him...And Paul a professional ball player is an expert at reading signals. I think he knows when it comes to Will he has the upper hand in all things except when it comes to him and Sonny. One thing I find interesting in the Horita dynamic is that in a way, Paul does hold all the cards when it comes to Will. I was just rewatching the scenes where Will and Paul are together in the hotel and Paul calls Will out on his attraction to him (Paul.) Paul came on to Will again, knowing full well that Will was still attracted to him and then was pissed when the actual act was cut well short of the happy ending. Paul called Will out again on his attraction after Sonny was in the hospital just before Adrienne busted in on them. So now, and this could just be me fanwanking way too hard, but along with blackmailing Will with 'you blackmailed my mother and I'll tell Sonny if you....' or he could also add in 'you wanted me on more than one occasion, I could tell just by the way you were looking at me and the way we kissed' excuse. Will did admit to Sonny that he had wanted to have sex with Paul, and that he hadn't whored himself for the story. If Sonny knew that WiPau almost had sex three times I think Sonny would loose his shit.
Paul could hold something like that over Will's head, but I don't he will. Because it's like Honeybees said, Paul does believe Will and I think beneath all the animosity, Paul though loving Sonny completely, has a small part inside of him where he holds onto the connection they (Hoirta) once had. He came out to Will, Will was with him when he came out to his family....Paul told Will he thought he'd met somebody but they were "taken too", Paul was talking about Will. I think Paul is seeking connections right now, especially since he lost so much when he played ball. It makes sense to me, that he's want to connect with Will on some level simply because of Will's connection to John. I think Paul thinks that Pill could be friends if it wasn't for that pesky I love your husband too problem. I want Will to have a card or two up his sleeve, considering that he does now know exactly what Paul is all about even if Sonny is clueless.
I really hope that in the end Will isn't completely destroyed by the writing that he somehow, regains his brain and is freed from his current state of self doubt and insecurity. You made great points here. I have been Rewatching and it does add perspective. First of all I think Will meant more to Paul than most realize. When Paul found out Will was with the man of "Will's dreams" already and didn't want to go a second round., Paul was disappointed. Rewatching the love scenes looked like more than just a quick sex after all. Paul was very happy about their hooking up and he wanted to talk and bond and caress in bed. When will said not again he worried he was used for a story. When he knew Will was committed he focused back to Sonny even more. Then finding out about WilSon? He was worried about will and wanted to see him. The LOOK he had on his face when Will went to his hotel to tell him to leave was anger yes. But also hurt. I think he's saying some things that could be read as he's confusing his feelings. One example is when In the last episode when he played all his cards. He said to Will "I'm doing this because of you." he compared it to Jarlena and Will said "the difference is that Sonny loves me!" Paul's answer was strange. He said "then why did cheat on him and blackmail my mom to get me out of town" (not verbatim). Shouldn't he be arguing that SONNY might NOT only love Will rather than Arguing Will's love? Paul's point was how Marlena loved John so John pursued her and they got together. He compares their situation but explains that Will is acting not in love rather than Sonny. Will is totally sure Paul is irrisitable to Sonny if Paul persists. Why? Sonny I have been so frustrated with. But now I'm starting to understand his vulnerability and his lack of action because I see he is in shock and pain. I think he's afraid that Will's love for him is not enough. It breaks my heart and I was so angry at Sonny but he is hurt and unsure. He knows he's not chosing Pauk so he's not a threat. He is watching though. When I thought he forgot about Paul with Will I think I was wrong.
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Post by bennyd on May 24, 2015 12:45:33 GMT
I still think Paul's obsession in this saga is not all "Sonny is the love of my life" - I think he is still attracted to Will and was hurt that after Will succumbed to him the one time - then rejected him physically after that and when Paul tried to be friends, Will rejected him because he was angry/guilty about hurting Sonny. I think Will's rejection made him angry and determined to hurt him! And what better way to hurt him than taking away the one thing he is fighting to keep!
In regards to WilSon, Will holds the biggest card, Ari. I still think that is what will ultimately keep them together. I still think there is going to be a dangerous situation that will involve Ari. But, Will needs to come clean with Sonny about blackmailing Tori, plus, he should tell Sonny that Paul is pretty much blackmailing HIM with that information.
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 13:20:40 GMT
I still think Paul's obsession in this saga is not all "Sonny is the love of my life" - I think he is still attracted to Will and was hurt that after Will succumbed to him the one time - then rejected him physically after that and when Paul tried to be friends, Will rejected him because he was angry/guilty about hurting Sonny. I think Will's rejection made him angry and determined to hurt him! And what better way to hurt him than taking away the one thing he is fighting to keep! In regards to WilSon, Will holds the biggest card, Ari. I still think that is what will ultimately keep them together. I still think there is going to be a dangerous situation that will involve Ari. But, Will needs to come clean with Sonny about blackmailing Tori, plus, he should tell Sonny that Paul is pretty much blackmailing HIM with that information. I agree that Paul''s actions are about Will. Not Sonny bum not sure if he is consciously trying to hurt Will or not though. I think Paul really connected with Will and was hurt that Will has aggressively shut down his attempts at 'friendship' and gone to extreme measures to get him out of town. He wants Will in his life. Yet Will wants him gone. He keeps saying he's in love with Sonny. I believe he is in a way but I think had Will be free a relationship would have happened and he'd have moved on. He connects with Will and he understands his passion. He likes that Will calls him out on things. Will needs to be honest with Sonny and just tell everything he has done. Sonny would forgive him. I'm not as angry at all with Sonny as I was. His inaction is frustrating as heck. But I think he's still trying to figure out what even happened and why. I don't think he's wanting Paul back. He's trying to figure out what it all means. I think.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 15:27:44 GMT
I know, but I really want Will to focus on what Sonny is feeling and how he made him feel unwanted. He left to pursue his dream and Sonny felt rejected and when he came back he cheated on him. Will needs to focus on that and forget about Paul. And I really wish Will was like Sami. I still can't recover from how pathetic he sounded yesterday. Will, you're better than this. I know what you are saying, and if history is a judge, Will is going to go all Nicole and destroy himself. These writers only have a couple of trick and lying over and over again when it's stupid to lie is one of their tricks. JJ, Eve, Nicole, Will, Theresa.... But I don't think Paul has all the cards. I think he thinks he does. I wish Will has Theresa's smugness. She whacked a man with a fire poker and she goes around town giving him and his family an attitude. She doesn't hide in a little corner feeling afraid of what they'll do to her. Will needs to toughen up and go on the attack but as you mentioned many times, he's becoming like Nicole. He does something stupid, then grovells and then does it again.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 17:25:10 GMT
The article post recaps that Will continues to manipulate and his relationship deteriorates while Paul stands on the side line. My last comment is about FS that he looks tired and sad. Then I thought about this was around the time last year when he had that incident with his fiancé so probably this is having him seem out of it. And I think this could be the time he didn't renew his contact and now he is stuck repeating the same lines over and over... And this reminded me of how CM looked when he was wrapping up DAYS. The thrill seemed to be going for him. I have never believed that Freddie likes this cheating s/l. He's said in interviews that it's a soap and that's what happens but I don't find him convincing. In one of the articles about Chandler being let go it mentions his character would eventually be involved in a love triangle. So I think Chandler knew what was coming, I'm sure up coming s/l's were discussed with him when he was deciding to leave or resign. Chandler and Freddie did a lot of non scripted things during Will and Sonny's dating period. Almost all the things like playing with each others hair, Will playing with Sonny's ears, them just finding ways to touch to show the viewers how much in love these two characters are were mostly things Chandler and Freddie came up with. They created one of the most loving couples in daytime. I'm sure Chandler wasn't happy about what he was told was coming and if Freddie had any idea about it he probably wishes he could have gotten out then too. Even if Will and Sonny end together, which would mean them leaving together, Freddie coming back or a recast, the sad truth is the magic is gone, Tomsell destroyed it. The magic might be gone for now because of all the stuff that happened since Will went to LA but the magic can be brought back. The WilSon debacle reminds me of Ejami. After EJ cheated, Ejami fans were angered, saddened and were outraged for what was done to their couple. For a while it looked like they were not coming back together but then they ended up together. I think the writers, with few episodes, can recreate the magic and bring WilSon back together. My problem is that this thing about making Paul perfect and having every character parrot the same thing. I hate that. No one is perfect. And certainly a man who's pursuing a married man is far from perfect. Right now, it’s hard to see why Sonny should stay with Will since he’s lying and manipulating every thing. That’s the problem. When Will lied to Sonny the first time and gave up his baby, he was still written as sympathetic & every member of his family was on his side. This time around, no one is on Will’s side. And every character is implying that Sonny is in love with Paul.
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Post by Cordelia on May 24, 2015 17:28:39 GMT
Sorry that my views are too radical. Did I miss a post?
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Post by tr123 on May 24, 2015 17:33:08 GMT
Well CM, never knew he was going to be fired. He thought he will be fin his contract, these two cant be the same. I think there was a lot more tension with CM that we don't know about. He didn't know he'd be fired but I think he was working on negotiations that weren't going well and that's why it was so difficult. For Freddie. This was filmed following his accident and while waiting for his hearing plus he probably was disappointed because the story was supposed to be a Sonny story. But really if you go back and pay attention it is a Will and Paul story. They have the drama along with the action and other stories too. Sonny just had this. Possibly the writers were waiting because no one knew if he'd be forced to leave due to his situation.
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